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Iran should be added to the "today part of" subsection. Parts of modern-day Iran (Sistan and Baluchistan Province and Khorasan Province) were in the Mauryan empire.[1]JGallagher83 (talk) 23:24, 7 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Historical Geographer Charles Joppen created Mauryan Empire Map : [10]
Greek Historian on Empire extent(regarding Chandragupta) :
Greek historians mentioned the result of Seleucid–Mauryan war where Seleucid Empire's eastern satrapies( Gedrosia,Arachosia, Aria, and Paropamisadae) ceded to Mauryan Empire :
" Seleucus crossed the Indus and waged war with Sandrocottus [Maurya], king of he Indians, who dwelt on the banks of that stream, until they came to an understanding with each other and contracted a marriage relationship. Some of these exploits were performed before the death of Antigonus and some afterward."
"The geographical position of the tribes is as follows: along the Indus are the Paropamisadae, above whom lies the Paropamisus mountain: then, towards the south, the Arachoti: then next, towards the south, the Gedroseni, with the other tribes that occupy the seaboard; and the Indus lies, latitudinally, alongside all these places; and of these places, in part, some that lie along the Indus are held by Indians, although they formerly belonged to the Persians. Alexander [III 'the Great' of Macedon] took these away from the Arians and established settlements of his own, but Seleucus Nicator gave them to Sandrocottus [Chandragupta], upon terms of intermarriage and of receiving in exchange five hundred elephants. "
Greecian historian Pliny also quoted a passage from Megasthanes work about Chandragupta Empire boundaries:
" Most geographers, in fact, do not look upon India as bounded by the river Indus, but add to it the four satrapies of the Gedrose, the Arachotë, the Aria, and the Paropamisadë, the River Cophes thus forming the extreme boundary of India. According to other writers, however, all these territories, are reckoned as belonging to the country of the Aria. "
Megasthenes defined the region that Chandragupta won from Seleucus as likely western side Gedrosia which shares boundaries with the Euphrates River, and eastern side Arachosia shares boundaries with the Indus. The northern frontier boundary formed by Hindukush mountain range:
" India, which is in shape quadrilateral, has its eastern as well as its 'western side bounded by the great sea, but on the northern side it is divided by Mount Hemôdos from that part of Skythia which is inhabited by those Skythians who are called the Sakai, while the fourth or western side is bounded by the river called the Indus. "
" Sandrokottos (Chandragupta) the king of the Indians, India forms the largest of the four parts into which Southern Asia is divided, while the smallest part is that region which is included between the Euphrates and our own sea. The two remaining parts, which are separated from the others by the Euphrates and the Indus, and lie between these rivers... India is bounded on its eastern side, right onwards to the south, by the great ocean; that its northern frontier is formed by the Kaukasos range(Hindukush Range) as far as the junction of that range with Tauros; and that the boundary."
clearly it is the 'standard' extent of the Mauryan Empire.
Each empire specially ancient ones, have multiple debates and extents by different historians, the one universally accepted should be taken into consideration.JingJongPascal (talk) 13:40, 6 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
This is the standard "textbook" map of the Maurya Empire which is used globally in studies. It is accepted by globally by nearly all the Historians. -says which source? Confirmation-bias WP:OR. Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk!19:40, 6 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I think you are right here Jingjong and it should be duty of @Joshua Jonathan to give links to archives.I would say that even if that sourced one isnt written by historians they like Romila Thapar in one of her lecture stated that "Maurya Empire was a empire of metropolis,... and periphal (autonomous) areas".Though,she also doesnt mention which areas. Edasf (talk) 12:50, 8 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Still it shouldn't be mentioned here, as the link of her "citation" redirects to some other book written by some other person, the citations are either made wrrong accidentally or intentionally to increase the no. of historians , this is Wrong Sources and Original Research aswell.
Jingjong the newer map was just wild.It vanished Maurya control from South and incorrectly showed Aria under Mauryas.You better create a newer map I agree with your second one. Edasf (talk) 15:05, 8 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The map I had added , shows the maximum extent (Seleucid ceded all those territories to Mauryas, as mentioned in many sources and even the one already present in the article). JingJongPascal (talk) 15:10, 8 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The claim that Aria/Herat was one of the provinces (alongside Arachosia, Gedrosia, and Paropamisadae) ceded by Seleucus to Chandragupta Maurya is often repeated, but Aria (modern Herat) "has been wrongly included in the list of ceded satrapies by some scholars [...] on the basis of wrong assessments of the passage of Strabo [...] and a statement by Pliny." (Raychaudhuri & Mukherjee 1996, p. 594). Seleucus "must [...] have held Aria", and furthermore, his "son Antiochos was active there fifteen years later." (Grainger 2014, p. 109) Edasf (talk) 15:33, 8 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Seems like this is debated among historians too, many claim Aria was ceded other don't, but the point still remains
The historians in the refrences list , most of them do not mention this "map"
The map given in refrences is actually the one which is the maximum extent (in Archaeology of South Asian, the book on source provided by the hole map)
I don't have any problem with the map itself but the erroneous use of "Romila Thappar" and other historians who don't provide a solid representation of how a Mauryan empire without autonomous region would look like
Romila states "relativly liberated" "eastern Central India and deep South" she doesn't mentions any of the other "holes" in the map
Fine, I am removing historian names.I think I should make a new map since, those maps have errors and arent very detailed. Edasf (talk)10:29, 9 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
No, I think the maps the holes is fine.
All problem I had with was the errenous use of names of historians.
Pinging @JingJongPascal @Joshua Jonathan @Fowler&fowler @PadFoot2008 The first map, which shows the core areas separated by large independent areas, is poorly sourced, as none of the sources, except one, directly states the area that was not controlled; in addition to that, they neither state the area controlled(first two). Let's look at all the sources provided.:-
Stein, Burton (2010), A History of India, John Wiley & Sons, p. 74, ISBN 978-1-4443-2351-1, "In the past it was not uncommon for historians to conflate the vast space thus outlined with the oppressive realm described in the Arthashastra and to posit one of the earliest and certainly one of the largest totalitarian regimes in all of history. Such a picture is no longer considered believable; at present what is taken to be the realm of Ashoka is a discontinuous set of several core regions separated by very large areas occupied by relatively autonomous peoples" Clear case of WP:OR does it even states the areas controlled forget about areas not being controlled.
Dyson, Tim (2018), A Population History of India: From the First Modern People to the Present Day, Oxford University Press, pp. 16–17, ISBN 978-0-19-882905-8, "Magadha power came to extend over the main cities and communication routes of the Ganges basin. Then, under Chandragupta Maurya (c.321–297 bce), and subsequently Ashoka his grandson, Pataliputra became the centre of the loose-knit Mauryan 'Empire' which during Ashoka's reign (c.268–232 bce) briefly had a presence throughout the main urban centres and arteries of the subcontinent, except for the extreme south." Would reason the same as first.
It is of Herman Kulke which shows the clear extent but it is the only one which does not fall in WP:OR.
If we look, two of the four sources are WP: OR and the third, which shows the extent can be cross-questioned by the likes of historians: Vincent Arthur Smith, Joppen, Satish Chandra, R. C. Majumdar, historical geographer Joseph E. Schwartzberg, and many more. Hence the map should be removed and placed in a whole new section of Maximum extent or it should be put second in place.
Also the historians whose names are mentioned except the first two don't even specifically specify anything about "autonomous region" they do mention that some tribes were "relatively" liberated. But don't specify anything about their actual imperial authoritisation and rule.
Hence I find it very vague,
and the third source ,"Archaeology of South Asia" actually shows a map without holes, it does not contain a map with holes or clearly specifies which regions were liberated from imperial rule.
According to me
Either the , names of historians should be removed (except the first two) and the "autonomous regions" should be clearly specified
As Romila Specifies these regions as "Eastern Central India" and "Deep South"
She doesn't mention any other autonomous region except these two.
Authors are reliable but the simple rule of map making is to have the source for each and every area shaded and same for the area not shaded which in this case is not clearly specified. As two of the first authors just give an outlook not mentioning the exact areas. Hence it is WP: OR as just on the basis of outlook and that to not supported by other historians the map has been made to include areas not having imperial authority. Rawn3012 (talk) 08:07, 10 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I am sympathetic to these doubts about the "map with holes", and am myself of the opinion (already advocated here) that representing all these regions by 100% empty holes is certainly not mainstream and quite WP:OR, as it is not supported in the literature, even from the sources currently cited in the caption for the "map with holes" [1]. These sources generaly describe "relatively autonomous peoples", with "various levels of independence" from Mauryan power, and various levels of connection, but nothing that would justify total obliteration from the map through 100% empty holes.
Such nuance of the sources could be best be represented by shaded areas, indicating lesser levels of control, as in this map.
Hermann Kulke; Dietmar Rothermund (2004). A History of India (4th ed.). London: Routledge. ISBN 0-415-15481-2. 69-70. It is a map with many large areas with line pattern labelled "autonomous and free tribes". My preference would be to reuse the line patterns of the source or shaded areas, rather than create 100% empty holes, to avoid WP:OR and to catter for the fact that the "autonomy" of the regions by definition still implies only "a degree of independence" from central Mauryan power [2].
Stein, Burton (2010), A History of India, John Wiley & Sons, p. 74, ISBN 978-1-4443-2351-1, "In the past it was not uncommon for historians to conflate the vast space thus outlined with the oppressive realm described in the Arthashastra and to posit one of the earliest and certainly one of the largest totalitarian regimes in all of history. Such a picture is no longer considered believable; at present what is taken to be the realm of Ashoka is a discontinuous set of several core regions separated by very large areas occupied by relatively autonomous peoples." => Here the "holes" correspond to "relatively autonomous peoples", a term which does imply too only a degree of independence from central Mauryan power. Here again 100% empty holes are not justified as an illustration.
Ludden, David (2013), India and South Asia: A Short History, Oneworld Publications, pp. 28–29, ISBN 978-1-78074-108-6 Quote: "A creative explosion in all the arts was a most remarkable feature of this ancient transformation, a permanent cultural legacy. Mauryan territory was created in its day by awesome armies and dreadful war, but future generations would cherish its beautiful pillars, inscriptions, coins, sculptures, buildings, ceremonies, and texts, particularly later Buddhist writers." => The quote does not support the map in any way. The book is not accessible online.
Romila Thapar, anthropologists Monica L. Smith and Stanley Jeyaraja Tambiah, archaeologist Robin Coningham are indeed simply authors quoted in the same book, which is referenced 4 times in the same sentence of the caption: Coningham, Robin; Young, Ruth (2015), The Archaeology of South Asia: From the Indus to Asoka, c.6500 BCE – 200 CE, Cambridge University Press, pp. 451–466, ISBN 978-1-316-41898-7 p.452. In this book the text and the map only emphasize the uneven centrality of the Mauryan realm. Visually translating it into 100% empty holes is probably exaggerated.
Dyson, Tim (2018), A Population History of India: From the First Modern People to the Present Day, Oxford University Press, pp. 16–17, ISBN 978-0-19-882905-8, "Magadha power came to extend over the main cities and communication routes of the Ganges basin. Then, under Chandragupta Maurya (c.321–297 bce), and subsequently Ashoka his grandson, Pataliputra became the centre of the loose-knit Mauryan 'Empire' which during Ashoka's reign (c.268–232 bce) briefly had a presence throughout the main urban centres and arteries of the subcontinent, except for the extreme south." This quote leaves aside the final note to the sentence (note 49): "49. The Mauryan Empire incorporated several kingdoms that had arisen outside of the Ganges basin. They included Kamboja and Gandhara in the north-west, Avanti and Cedi in central India, and Asmaka in the south. See Erdosy (1995b: 115)."
In sum, even the sources claimed for the "map with holes" do not support 100% independence from central Mauryan power, which the graphical convention of 100% empty holes in the current map clearly suggests nonetheless. As such, it cannot be said that this "map with holes" is mainstream in any way, and it is quite certainly WP:OR. In order to respect the sources, the empty regions should at best be represented by shaded areas, indicating lesser levels of control.
पाटलिपुत्र (Pataliputra)(talk)08:44, 10 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Though I created this map a long, long time back, I certainly don't advocate for such a representation now. I think that the 'map with holes' is much more accurate than the outdated one, per @Fowler&fowler's arguments (and maps and quotations) which he presented in the RfC a while back. Showing the 'unconquered tribes' of east-central India, and the 'autonomous and free tribes' elsewhere as a part of the Mauryan realm, even in a lighter shade, would be inaccurate if they weren't conquered at all. PadFoot (talk) 09:19, 10 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@PadFoot2008 None of sources mention that tribes were completely independent and even if they majority of scholars use "relatively autonomous" which doesnt mean unconqured. Edasf (talk)09:23, 10 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Do you have sources that mention that the tribes were conquered in the first place? The sources don't mention these tribes to be a part of the Mauryan territory. PadFoot (talk) 09:29, 10 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I never said they were conquered but Rawn has clearly specified that being relatively autonomous mean they did had a level independence but also had some suzernity for Mauryas.Ashokas inscritions also mention some vassal tribesEdasf (talk)09:32, 10 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
To support your claim, you need sources to explicitly say that they were conquered or were a part of the Mauryan empire, which the none of the sources say. PadFoot (talk) 09:49, 10 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Let me rephrase it. None of the sources say that they formed a part of the Mauryan empire. The singular source Rawn refers to also doesn't mention that these "relatively autonomous peoples" were a part of the Mauryan empire. The word "relatively" cannot be simply taken to mean that were under suzerainty of anyone. Kulke & Rothermund say autonomous and free tribes, clearly saying that these were free and autonomous and not a part of the empire. They also refer to the east-central tribes as 'unconquered'. The map by Sinopoli showing the territorial boundaries of the Mauryan empire also supports the given map. PadFoot (talk) 10:35, 10 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Your argument itself supports removal of given map and that only eastcentral tribes were unconquered then how is others independent.Relatively autonomous means some degree of independence not full this proves that there was atleast some sort of influence.I definitely doesnt dispute that they werent part of Maurya Empire but current map shows them completely unconquered which isnt correct rather map proposed by @पाटलिपुत्र is much better.Since it specifies a reader a much.Think about it? Edasf (talk)10:42, 10 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The source doesn't say that these tribes were a part of the Mauryan empire. Autonomous doesn't imply that they were a part of the Mauryan empire, which would be OR, rather autonomous means that the tribes ruled themselves. (Also note that it also says 'free tribes'.) No connection of these to Mauryas is mentioned. The author simply indicates to us the location of autonomous and free tribes in South Asia at that time, and also includes the Cholas, Cheras and Pandyas in this category, who undisputedly were not a part of the Mauryan realm. You also ignored the map by Sinopoli which clearly indicates the Mauryan territories. PadFoot (talk) 10:55, 10 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Nevertheless,the extent is mention in only a source and how those territories are given autonomous which were ceded by Seleucus. Edasf (talk)11:16, 10 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Romila only mentions central eastern India and deep South,
@पाटलिपुत्र I would support the map proposed by you as it is better in graphical terms, also @Edasf It would be very difficult to judge your map without the final version presented. Also continuing on the Pataliputra's argument, only one historian among all the historians cited for the map with holes has clearly stated the boundary. Taking about others, they just mention it in the statement falling into the category of possibility.Rawn3012 (talk) 09:22, 10 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Rawn3012 I am OK with it but the current map shows that Tribes were fully autonomous and unconqured based on some sources.It would be impossible that there will be no influence or suzernity by them for their larger neighbour the Maurya Empire. Edasf (talk)09:26, 10 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@PadFoot2008 I have read the past discussions, and by going through them, I can say that Fowler & Fowler has made some very good arguments, but his arguments are not clearly supported by his cited sources, as none of them state total independence from the Mauryan Empire, but in place of that, they use terms like "relatively autonomous" and "various degrees of independence," which fall into the category of possibility.
The caption to the map says "autonomous," not "independent." "Autonomous" can easily be changed to "relatively autonomous." It's clear from the sources were nothing like modern state-controlled areas with permanent military presence - or police-stations, to make a modern comparison. Compare it to the 19th century Aerican frontier, I guess. Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk!11:50, 10 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Joshua Jonathan Quote:"The Maurya Empire was a loose-knite with large autonomous regions within its limits" (From Ludden,David 2013).This source clearly states Maurya influence or suzernity on these territories. Edasf (talk)11:56, 10 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Replacing current map since there isnt a need for since these were relatively autonomous and didnt separated in accordance to caption. Edasf (talk)12:05, 10 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
i think we should just shade them differently as per source provided by @Edasf , which states that they were autonomous but still under the influence/limits of the imperial authority.
Sorry, but the green map is ugly - a green blob. The 'holes-map' looks better, and has more nuance. Note, by the way, the explanation "conceptualized as"; it does not pretend to be 'exactly' correct. Note also that the caption of the 'solid map' says "maximum extent," not 'areas controlled by the Magadha Empire', or something similar; the two maps present two different pieces of info. Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk!13:09, 10 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Joshua Jonathan@PadFoot2008 @Edasf @JingJongPascal I suggest you guys should see this map(proposed by Pataliputra earlier)made by Avantiputra7. It shows the holes in lighter green colour which is more understandable and keeps all the major and minor details of the earlier two version. Only update it would take is in its legend where it should be mentioned that light green areas shows relatively autonomous areas.
They ceded three satrapies to the Mauryans, of which Gedrosia, the Mauryans never came to rule. "Desert of Gedrosia [...] was left an unclaimed wilderness." — Kosmin (2014). Also per Luten, "The geography of the Mauryan Empire resembled a spider with a small dense body and long spindly legs", thus not including the tribal regions in the Mauryan empire. PadFoot (talk) 15:02, 10 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
You guys need consensus prior to adding any new maps. Personally I prefer the map with holes and don’t see much of a reason to be adding a new map. But even if you disagree, the ONUS is on you to reach consensus because you want to add new content which hasn’t been done here. Someguywhosbored (talk) 23:55, 10 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Well there are plenty of users who have voiced their disapproval for this change. Including Joshua, padfoot, and me. What I’m saying is, in the future, if you want to make this change, you first need to reach consensus, which hasn’t been done here. Someguywhosbored (talk) 01:32, 11 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
All right so @Edasf, evidently they didn’t agree with you. Both padfoot and Joshua voiced their disapproval with the changes you have suggested, same with me. That’s means you haven’t reached consensus on this matter yet. Someguywhosbored (talk) 03:05, 11 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It's not a vote. The replies lacks logic; as Padfoot himself stated, it’s just his personal preference. The world doesn’t run on anyone’s preferences—especially not those of someone known for idealizing the Mughals and canvassing across Wikipedia to portray the Mughal Empire as the greatest in history. This includes attempts to diminish other major, older Indian empires, either by creating gaps in their territories or portraying contemporary powerful entities as under Mughal suzerainty for their entire existence (even when those entities themselves proved to be the biggest bane and nemesis of the Mughals). Padfoot might try from time to time to support other povs and act more neutral in some other topic areas but their intensity and consistency to bullshit for certain topic areas exposes their inherent orignal bias and this is one of them( i would say top priority)
A map with gaps is not only misleading and OR but also borders on POV-pushing. What’s the difference between fully independent and semi-autonomous regions if you use similar markings, gaps, or colors for both?
I think you need to understand that this has been discussed many times in the past before. Like a lot. And consensus to change the map was never reached in any conversation.
plus this new discussion just started so let’s wait until other users voice their opinion as well. Either way if you want to make a change, gain consensus first. Someguywhosbored (talk) 06:39, 11 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, please direct everyone to the conversation link where a consensus was reached that 'semi-, partially, or relatively autonomous' is equivalent to 'completely independent.' Unless such a consensus exists, using 'holes' is simply pushing a biased and original perspective and can be considered incorrect, misleading, original research, disinformation, or deliberate misinformation.
I’ve provided my input, but given the average IQ level worldwide ( which is decreasing every passing year), it’s understandable if my reasoning went over some people's heads and no action is taken on this page. Have a nice day! 2409:40E3:103D:8274:D44E:6101:52AA:3A95 (talk) 06:52, 11 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Kosmin's statements on the Gedrosia region appear inconsistent as he contradicts his own statement. First, he states on Pg. 16: "The satrapies of Gandhara, Aria, and Arachosia, in part or whole, were early on ceded to the Mauryan kingdom of India. The unrelieved desert of Gedrosia, today's Baluchistan on the shores of the Indian Ocean, was left an unclaimed' wilderness."[3]. But, later he states on Pg. 33: "Seleucus transferred to Chandragupta's kingdom the easternmost satrapies of his empire, certainly Gandhara, Parapamisadae, and the eastern parts of Gedrosia, and possibly also Arachosia and Aria as far as Herat."[4]. It may be best to avoid mentioning such contradictions directly. Malik-Al-Hind (talk) 08:24, 13 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I also prefer the present map with holes. It's clear what the holes mean, and the conclusion that the Mauryas controlled the main cities, and not all of the tribal areas, makes sense. Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk!06:29, 11 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, but what tribal areas?
Romila (I have stated this thousand times) only mentions a vague reply
Of "Eastern Central India" and Deep South
And the sources also states they were "relativly liberated" it does not mention whether they were still under the influence of the Imperial authority via vassal or anything else.
Also the name of the historians is very very vague too, these historians don't "specify the extent"
You need consensus per WP:ONUS. So regardless of your opinion you probably shouldn’t say he’s just making stuff up now, especially since he’s already provided many references to other conversations regarding the same topic with the links he sent.
“ The responsibility for achieving consensus for inclusion is on those seeking to include disputed content.”
since your the one who wants to add disputed content, the ONUS is on you. If consensus is not reached, than previous content is retained per “WP:NOCONSENSUS”. Someguywhosbored (talk) 09:15, 11 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Either the present map, or the alternate (shaded) map by Avantiputra. Arguments about "autonomous," "liberated," etc., or the exact extent of Mauryan power, miss the point of this map: that the Mauryan Empire was not a nation state in the modern meaning. Fowler&fowler picked-up that insight, and brilliantly conveyed it in this map. I found it eye-opening; a very meaningfull insight communicated in one, simple visual aid. Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk!09:21, 11 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I and Pataliputra, in our above replies, have clearly stated that the sources provided do not clearly state that those holes are in all terms independent. The map with a light green shade should be used instead of these two, as it will present a better picture to the viewers about the polity. Rawn3012 (talk) 09:45, 11 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with @Rawn3012 and @पाटलिपुत्र ; some sources appear to fulfill only minor requirements and do not clearly explain the Herman Kulke map. Better to use Patliputra synthetic map. Apart from the Herman Kulke map, in the same book, Kulke seems to agree that Baluchistan (Gedrosia) was under Chandragupta’s rule, though his map shows a gap, possibly indicating limited control rather than complete independence. On page 59, he states: "In 305 BC, Seleukos Nikator... Chandragupta met him at the head of a large army in the Panjab and stopped his march east. In the subsequent peace treaty, Seleukos ceded to Chandragupta all territories to the east of Kabul as well as Baluchistan." --Herman Kulke & Dietmar Rothermund[5] Since ancient times, it was not feasible for armies to access every part of an empire, as seen in Alexander's empire. His campaigns followed specific routes where populations were concentrated. A map of Alexander the Great's empire at its largest extent c.323 BCE including details of key roads, location, and battles. This suggests the possibility of large, autonomous tribes existing within these empires. Similarly, in Darius' empire, significant regions and tribes remained that did not pay tribute, indicating a level of independence.Tribute in the Achaemenid EmpireNxcryptoMessage11:40, 11 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
True, Macedonian and Alexander barely had any influence in the city skirts and outer boundaries
Only major routes and cities were effectually ruled.
I am talking of shading about different territories of gained by emperors all should be shaded in one only.Nevertheless I dont have much issue and I am ready to accept this only. Edasf (talk)12:58, 11 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Hi @JingJongPascal Talking about other Empires would be not fine as what happens in this page is totally different from what is happening on other pages. I think the map by Pataliputra would be fine with some minor corrections.
It was a response to Rawn3012, who wrote the sources provided do not clearly state that those holes are in all terms independent. The reply-function has some disadvantages... Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk!09:02, 12 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks, @Joshua Jonathan:, for your note on my talk page. I'm a little busy for the next couple of days, but will reply on Thursday, Nov 14. It will be an "auspicious" day to reply, if I'm allowed to digress, as it is the 135th birthday of Nehru, the man who proposed in July 1947 that the Lion capital of Ashoka in the Sarnath museum but without the bell-shaped lotus be the emblem of the newlysoon to be independent Dominion of India and the Wheel of Dharma in the abacus be the central feature in the dominion's tricolor flag, which otherwise was modeled in its choice of color by the Irish flag and the role the Irish Home rule leaguers had played in India's anti-colonial movement.
1) Name of the Historians mentioned in "Archeology of South Asia" (which is used a source for hole map) is very vague.
The historians don't actually say the areas where holes were.
They do mention deep South and Central Eastern India (Kalinga) but nothing else.
While the hole map has holes other places too.
2)Northwestern regions, as per my sources , Gedrosia and Aria (entirty) was ceded to mauryans, which is not included in the hole map or maximum extent map
3) The "Autonomous regions" can be misleading. It clearly tries to pin point them being "Independent" I know autonomous doesn't means Independent, but I can be misleading
The Archaeology of South Asia which is used as a source states they were "relativly autonomous" so they were still under "imperial" rule in one way or another.
I would like to divide my reply in two parts, first about the tertiary sources of the Hole map and second about the visual sources of the latter.
1.) Hi @Fowler&fowler You are a very senior editor to me, and hence I would easily be able to draw the conclusion that you have a very strong understanding of WP:OR, even for map making. The written source, if someone is using them, should state the territory controlled in a very clear manner, or more likely in X to Y format.
For ex:-
Chandragupta founded the Mauryan Empire. His empire encompassed the whole of northern India and Afghanistan." -- Alfred S. Bradford, Pamela M. Bradford (2001). With Arrow, Sword, and Spear: A History of Warfare in the Ancient World. Praeger. p. 125
"The vastness of the Mauryan empire, from Afghanistan in the north to Karnataka in the south and from Kathiawad in the west to Kalinga in the east (if not as far as north Bengal), is considered on the basis of the spots where Asoka's edicts were (...)" -- Bharati Ray, ed. Different Types of History: Project of History of Science, Philosophy and Culture in Indian Civilization (Vol. XIV, part 4). Pearson Longman. p. 24
"The Maurya Empire extended from Afghanistan in the north to the deep south in India except for the southern tip of (...)" -- Stanton, Andrea L., ed. (2012) Cultural Sociology of the Middle East, Asia, and Africa: An Encyclopedia p. 41
"By 300, Chandragupta ruled over an India that extended from modern Afghanistan to Burma and from the Himalayas to nearly the southern tip of the subcontinent." -- David W. Del Testa, ed. (2014) Government Leaders, Military Rulers and Political Activists p. 30
It has been already shown (Ch. II) that the empire of Candragupta extended from Afghanistan to Mysore and that of Ashoka was far greater in extent including all the Dekhan and South India upto the frontiers of the Tamil Kingdoms." -- V. R. Ramachandra Dikshitar (1993) Motilal Banarsidass Publ., The Mauryan Polity. p. 197
"He [Ashoka] controlled an empire (the largest until British rule) that ranged from Bangladesh in the east to Afghanistan in the north and included much of the southern part of the subcontinent." -- Denise Patry Leidy (2008) The Art of Buddhism: An Introduction to Its History & Meaning p. 9
Saul, David (2009). The Mauryan Empire. In Sturgeon, Alison, ed. War: From Ancient Egypt to Iraq. Dorling Kindersley. ISBN 9781405341332) pp. 54-55. (basically confirms the story mentioned by sources listed above).
The sources provided by you are vague and do not explicitly state that this area was controlled or was not. It includes the likes of historians Burton Stein, Arnold David, Stanley Tambiah, Tim Dyson, and David Luden.
2.) Talking about the maps provided, again as an experienced editor. You know that we are talking about the greatest extent of the empire. Hence, you should be providing the source in that journa.
Among your all cited sources none except Herman Kulke and Ruthermund state the empire's territory at its zenith and the territory being controlled or not. F.R. Allchin talks about the Empire's major provinces, another one Monica L. Smith argues that Mauryan authority was a network rather than centralized. Remmaing two, I was not able to acces.
Hence, I would request all the editors to look upon all the arguments provided and then base your decision.
Before this there was a long discussion but concluded with starting a Rfc .So first I will say about map without holes it needs since in today part of section Iran is mentioned while this map shows none of Iran as Mauryan even it excludes parts of Pakistan So should this be changed?.Then, map with holes is looks confusing how did territories ceded by Seleucus became autonomous? Then none of sources mention complete independence for tribes so to help a reader understand context So should we use a map with different shades?Edasf (talk)05:58, 15 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It's your responsibility to prove how all the discussions have been exhausted before starting an rfc, you cannot expect uninvolved editors to go look for them and your rfc statement is not neutral. - Ratnahastin (talk) 06:44, 15 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Ratnahastin I wanted to ask you, as I assume that this RFC is closed(per your comment above) and another a year ago with no consent. Do we have to opt for RFC or should we stick to the discussion above?
The current maximum extent map shows none of Iran (Even excludes some Pakistan) while,Iran is on today part of section.Should this map be changed to new map?This Rfc is redrawn per above section. Edasf (talk)09:41, 15 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
You should close this RfC ASAP. The statement is entirely unintelligible, not to mention it is as entirely non-neutral. You will be wasting the time of competent editors. You should first discuss on this page with everyone how RfC should be formulated. Figure out in which Wikipedia projects to advertise it in, come to some kind of a consensus with everyone, and only then, begin the RfC. Fowler&fowler«Talk»13:37, 15 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
And please for heavens sake don't rush through this. Formulating the RfC will take a week. The RfC will take at least a month, that is if people don't have RfC fatigue as they know the last one was a flop. Fowler&fowler«Talk»13:39, 15 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Please also note that if new editors appear out of the blue and support one version or other, their supports will be discounted by the closer. See the discussion in the RfC of September 2023. Fowler&fowler«Talk»13:45, 15 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I've moved the references and links for the network-model map into a note, for a comprehensive overview; havinf gone through all the links and references I can only say that this map represents a solid scholarly view on how the Maurya Empire expanded and was controlled: not as a vast territoty, but as a network of strongly controlled cities, and dimly controlled regions which were commecially less relevant.
I think we should go for the RFC as I strongly feel all the sources provided for the network maps are pretty vague aside of one which I was not able to access. Rawn3012 (talk) 13:50, 16 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Edasf I am willing to be the nominator and advertising will be done too as what I think Mauryan Empire could be a network based polity operated through imperial cities instead of highly centralized one, but the influence these cities exerted outside their core can easily be put to debate. Rawn3012 (talk) 14:08, 16 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Joshua Jonathan I would like to request that you remove the sources that do not have any direct link to the network map. Specifically the ones who are explaining the type of polity the Mauryan Empire was It includes the likes of historians Burton Stein, Arnold David, Stanley Tambiah, Tim Dyson, and David Luden. As putting it in a better way, I can say this: these sources are neither explaining the extent of the empire nor the territory controlled or not controlled, and even if they are, it is not in a specified manner, and this is also the reason why fingers are being put on the map. As it implies certain degree of WP:OR. By opting for these sources, you are not giving the network map a celebral opportunity to present it as reliable.
@Edasf I am willing to be the nominator and advertising will be done too as what I think Mauryan Empire could be a network based polity operated through imperial cities instead of highly centralized one, but the influence these cities exerted outside their core can easily be put to debate Rawn3012 (talk) 14:10, 16 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
We can go through those sources one by one; this is too vague. It seems we're running the same circle again: these sources are neither explaining the extent of the empire nor the territory controlled or not controlled, that's not what the network-model is about - or maybe it is, in the opposite way. To quote Smith:
With broad lines and dark shading, the cartographic depictions of ancient states and empires convey the impression of comprehensive political entities having firm boundaries and uniform territorial control. These depictions oversimplify the complexities of early state growth, as well as overstating the capacity of central governments to control large territories. Archaeological and textual evidence suggests that ancient states are better understood through network models rather than bounded territory models.
The sources given as an explanation are relevant to this network-model, which is what the Network-model conceptualizes, not the exact extent or which territories exactly were controlled or not. Regards, Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk!14:08, 16 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I am not much about holes one and still it seems impossible there would be no Mauryan influence over these regions. To be precise both maps be changed. Edasf«Talk»15:46, 16 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
"Network-model map," not Swiss cheese. Regarding it seems impossible there would be no Mauryan influence over these regions, that's a simplification of what the sources talk about. Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk!16:06, 16 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
No. Ludden (2013): "Kautilya’s Arthasastra indicates that imperial power was concentrated in its original heartland, in old Magadha, where key institutions seem to have survived for about seven hundred years, down to the age of the Guptas." There's no compelling evidence to shade the tribal areas; actually, given Ludden, the shades areas outside Magadha should be shaded lighter. Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk!18:39, 16 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
For maximum extent, I would refer Mauryan Empire map by History Professor of Oxford University Harold Arthur Harris[6] or Mauryan Empire map published by Millennium House which is written by group of Historian, Archeologist and Historical Geographer[7]. Malik-Al-Hind (talk) 08:07, 17 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Although this is my suggestion and I wouldn't like to involve myself further in this, But I think if you are representing 2 POVs then represent them accurately and rightfully. Malik-Al-Hind (talk) 08:07, 17 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Pinging @Malik-Al-Hind @Edasf I would like to say that consensus on the above talk page was for the hole map, not for the maximum extent map; also, only Joshua has agreed. Aside from that, the creator of the map, Avantiputra7, is a very senior editor with hands-on experience in map mapping. Removing his map without even discussing it with him and then creating another based on his map only is not right. As it would be a kind of disgrace to his hard work, for which he deserves credit. Courtsey ping @Avantiputra7 @PadFoot2008Rawn3012 (talk) 07:55, 17 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Sure, let us begin the discussion. I would just start with giving a suggestion since I don't really want myself to get involved in it. Basically it is just for the maximum extent, I would genuinely refer Mauryan Empire map by History Professor of Oxford University Harold Arthur Harris[8] or Mauryan Empire map published by Millennium House which is written by group of Historian, Archeologist and Historical Geographer[9]. Malik-Al-Hind (talk) 08:15, 17 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I think I replied you twice giving my suggestions but I will reply here too. If you read the discussion which you cited, you will notice that there are indeed many errors in his map, he has made paropamisadae and gandhara into one (which it was not), The marking of Kuntala region and gedrosia region is slightly wrong as well. Moreover, given by the theme of the infobox, We were supposed to add the maps of two point of views i.e One with holes and one without holes, I believe the one without holes has been represented wrongly, Because all the historians it quotes in the citation bar, Namely Rc Majumdar, Vincent smith and Joseph E. Schwartzberg agree that "aria" was the part of Mauryan empire. So it must be included in the maximum extent map. Yes indeed there are historians who say aria was not the part of Mauryans, but we already have a holed version of mauryan map which doesn't have aria. So atleast it should be included in the map which is without holes, Because the maps should go with what the cited sources are saying, but if we carefully notice this, the current map isn't aligning with the sources it is citing.
So this is just a suggestion, that the map should be changed to the map @Edasf posted, you can give credits to Avantiputra, I don't have a problem with that. For maximum extent, I would prefer to also refer Mauryan Empire map by History Professor of Oxford University Harold Arthur Harris[10] or Mauryan Empire map published by Millennium House which is written by group of Historian, Archeologist and Historical Geographer[11]. Thank you.. Malik-Al-Hind (talk) 09:55, 17 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
In the revised map, the northern 'borders' are also expanded; I think I would object against that. Best thing to do would be to adjust Avantiputra's map a slight little bit, I think. Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk!11:46, 17 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
We are ready to adjust that if there is an error there, but we will include entire gedrosia and obviously aria to align the map with the cited sources. Malik-Al-Hind (talk) 11:54, 17 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Someguywhosbored: You asked, so here's my take. The Ganges Plain was deforested in the first half of the first millennium BCE by the Indo-Aryan speaking migrants who had arrived in South Asia from the northwest ca. 1200 BCE. The first clan-based city states and the caste system to stratify or wall out the native peoples of the region (the forest dwelling hunter gatherers) came to being by the mid-first millennium BCE.
Technologically, what are the chances that one of those city states, later called Magadha, had become so big by 300 BCE, that it could really have a centralized empire reaching all the way to Western Baluchistan, that they could build real canals (with the attendant problem of sedimentation in the Himalayan rivers), or even subcontinent-wide highways, which took the British (who were in the midst of an industrial revolution) quite a bit of hard work to build?
The main problem for me is that except for Ashoka's pillars and edicts, there is no archaeological trace of the Mauryas in South Asia. Greece (ca 450 BCE) had the File:Classic view of Acropolis.jpg, let alone such as those of the Indus Valley Civilisation, Ancient Egypt or Babylon. And the Ashokan capitals and pillars are, in the view of the majority of archaeologists, the work of Iranian stonemasons who had fled the sacking Persopolis by Alexander in 323 BCE and hired by the Mauryans. See Lion capital of Ashoka: Influences.
For me, this entire topic area, is very problematic, especially since 2014 when the old regional sub-nationalism that boosted the Mauryas has been surmounted by an India-wide religious nationalism. If WPians do not want to first read and understand modern approaches to history and archaeology (such as the kind of sources cited in the FA India) and if they prefer instead to start with tall stories of cultural grandiosity and then use Google to find the sources that support them, there is not much I can do. I try to fix the lead now and them, but beyond that I don't have the energy nor the heart. Fowler&fowler«Talk»15:21, 17 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Again..the problem here is, If the Mauryans didn't rule gedrosia/aria as per some historians, that is totally fine, That is literally what the holed version of the map is for. But when we are talking about the standard Mauryan map (without holes) which is used almost everywhere from britanica to Oxford to Cambridge to Chicago University press, and the map which is also in Wikipedia, it should go with the sources it is citing and the sources it is based on specifically, the map is well sourced but it doesn't go with the citations/sources it is citing at all. I will explain what I mean here. It specifically cites 3 notable historians (although there are 100s more which support it but let us ignore that) who are Joseph Schwartzberg, RC majumdar and Vincent Arthur smith, let us go with what they say one by one.
Vincent Arthur Smith; R. C. Majumdar; and historical geographer Joseph E. Schwartzberg."
Pg.75 : Chandragupta Maurya, and the four satrapies of Aria, Arachosia, Gedrosia, and the Paropanisadai were ceded to him by Seleukos Nikator about B.C. 305. The Maurya frontier was thus extended as far as the Hindû Kush Mountains, and the greater part of the countries now called Afghanistan, Balûchistan and Makran, with the North-Western Frontier Province, became incorporated in the Indian Empire. That empire included the famous strongholds of Kabul, Zabul, Kandahar, and Herat, and so possessed the scientific frontier' for which Anglo-Indian statesmen have long sighed in vain.
Asoka, the Buddhist emperor of India by Smith, Vincent Arthur [12]
Pg.105 : Net result of the expedition, however, clearly indicate that Seleucus met with a miserable failure. For he had not only to finally abandon the idea of reconquering the Panjab, but had to buy peace by ceding Paropanisadai, Arachosia, and Aria, three rich provinces with the cities now known as Kabul, Kandähär and Herät respectively as their capitals, and also Gedrosia (Baluchistan), or at least a part of it. The victorious Maurya king probably married the daughter of his Greek rival, and made a present of five hundred elephants to his royl father-in-law.
Pg. 170 : By 311 B.C. or somewhat later the Indus had become the frontier of the Magadhan Empire. Further westward expansion was largely the outcome of the successful military encounter with Seleucus Nicator (Seleukos Nikator), founder of the Seleucid dynasty and inheritor of Alexander's eastern empire from northern Syria to India Between 305 and 302 B.C. Seleucus ceded the satrapies of Gedrosia. Arachosia, Paropamisadai, and probably Aria , gave his adversary a Greek princess in marriage, and obtained in return 500 war elephants and permanent peace and friendship on his eastern frontier. About this time, perhaps earlier, western Gandhara and areas north to the Hindu Kush, Abhisara, and probably Kasmira were also annexed to the Mauryan dominions.
Historical Atlas of India by Joseph E. Schwartzberg [14]
All of the cited sources in the map indicate that the Mauryans Had Aria but the said map which is literally relied on that source doesn't include it, Indicating That it is not aligning with the very sources it is citing, So if you are putting 2 versions of the map, present them accurately and rightfully and let the readers to decide it.
Now coming to the holed map, I personally have no problem with that, Unless it is just WP:OR like @पाटलिपुत्र said, because even the sources in its support which supposedly claims for the "map with holes" do not support its 100% independence from central Mauryan power, which the graphical convention of 100% empty holes in the current map clearly suggests. Because of which it cannot be said that this "map with holes" is mainstream in any way or even academic in any way, you will find it nowhere except for in wikipedia, because of which it is WP:OR. In order to respect the sources, the empty regions should at best be represented by shaded areas, indicating lesser levels of control. That would be respected, although I have nothing to object about that, I am merely here to correct the standard Mauryan map.
@Someguywhosbored For now, see these maps [15][16], They are WP:RS, Yes the current map is sourced and The cited historians in the maximum extent map such as Vincent arthur, Joseph and RC majumdar, all agree with the said map by saying aria was the part of mauryans. Which the map doesn't include. Proving that The current map isn't even aligning with the sources it is citingMalik-Al-Hind (talk) 13:02, 17 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Someguywhosbored And everyone agrees a little part of Iran and coastal Balochistan were under Mauryan control if you dont believe I can provide sources as well.Do you still oppose changing current map? Edasf«Talk»13:15, 17 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
In Baluchistan, neolithic villages such as Mehrgarh dating to 7,000 BCE have survived in pristine state. The first use of cotton for cloth has survived in Mehrgarh. The first in-vivo drilling of teeth (with a bow drill) has survived in Mehrgarh (see the famous article in Nature announcing it.
Why is it that there is no, zero, nada, evidence of the Mauryas in Baluchistan. Only a vague mention of the treat in the account of Greek historians given to exaggeration. Doesn't add up. Fowler&fowler«Talk»16:20, 17 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Joshua Jonathan I believe this isn't going right as it should go, We have "holed" map of Mauryans for a reason, there aria and gedrosia isn't included for this very reason. But this standard version should have gedrosia/aria since it has to align with the sources it is based on. Which it isn't allowing.
"Where is the archeological evidence" is a clearly different topic and i believe is WP:RS here. We were discussing to fix the standard Mauryan map with the help of the sources it is based on, The sources clearly state Mauryans had aria but the map doesn't have it. The map is Not aligning with the very sources it is based on. Malik-Al-Hind (talk) 16:33, 17 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Fowler&fowler With all due to respect, you seem to have ignored my comment earlier. You do realise what you are doing is WP:RS right? We go with what the scholars and academia says in wikipedia. The map is based on those sources it isn't aligning with. The sources do specifically state they had aria and gedrosia therefore it must be included, Gedrosia is already there but Aria is not. Malik-Al-Hind (talk) 16:30, 17 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Joshua Jonathan It is not accurate enough, it doesn't have aria, and the sources it is relied on clearly says that Mauryans did have Aria. You are pretty much ignoring everything we said. Keep in mind the maps should be aligning with the sources they are based on, and the sources do state that Mauryans had Entire Aria and gedrosia. Malik-Al-Hind (talk) 16:19, 17 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Fowler&fowler Do you have sources that dispute this and you mean only those areas be under Mauryas where inscriptions are? Iran is there in today part of section.Don't know how you even know Greeks did exaggeration maybe you secretly built time machine.@Malik-Al-Hind provided several sources.Complete nonsense from an experienced editor. Edasf«Talk»16:27, 17 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
F&f does have a point; Avantiputra effectively made the same point: maximum extent according to the presence of inscriptions. I've reverted Avantiputra's map back to the previous state, awaiting consensus. Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk!16:32, 17 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Joshua JonathanIf it is about maximum extent according to the presence of inscriptions then every single ancient Empire including the Achaemenid empire and Macedonian empire would get minimize, this could apply to literally every single ancient empire existing.
Our discussion was to change the standard Mauryan map according to the sources it is based on. The sources do state that aria was a part of Mauryans as I have clearly provided above (which both you and fowler supposedly ignored). But the map doesn't have aria, indicating that it is not Aligning with the sources it is based on, Which it should.
Indeed there are few sources which state Aria wasn't the part of Mauryans, but that is literally what the holed version is for, which doesn't have gedrosia or Aria. But you have to let it remain in the Standard Mauryan map so it is aligned with the sources and is represented accurately. Malik-Al-Hind (talk) 16:42, 17 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
no one thinks you are POV pushing. But the sources provided for map with holes is vague.
And The maximum extent of mauryan empire has to be its maximum extent not its "semi maximum" extent.
Map for mughal empire used in the article is from the same historical atlas from which we are sourcing. if that map is accurate, what makes this less accurate? same sources. JingJongPascal (talk) 17:22, 17 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not missing the point. I was the first person to upload maps from Joppen, Vincent Smith, and Majumdar, Raychaudhuri and Datta, all of which I own. The medieval and early modern maps are more reliable as there were more primary sources on which they relied. For the Mauryas there was nothing but the mythologyzing and hagiographic Greeek historians. Fowler&fowler«Talk»17:34, 17 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Can you provide me source that Greeks "mythologyzed" Maurya Empire's extent? They clearly state, that Seleucids lost the war, and ceded away Eastern Afghanistan and Entire baluchistan.
I don't know what is hard to understand here. The map is based on the sources it isn't aligning with, The sources cited clearly state Aria was the part of Mauryan empire, but the supposed map doesn't have it. Which needs to improve and change.
"But the extent is according to the mauryan inscriptions throughout South asia"
That would be literally WP:OR, we can't ourselves make up the boundaries of the mauryan empire based on our understanding of their inscriptions, We rely on historians, archeologists and other scholarly academic sources for that. And the academic sources this standard Mauryan map is based on clearly includes aria in it. Which the supposed map doesn't have. And with this, we can literally minimize every single ancient empire which ever existed, this can clearly apply on the Macedonian empire and the Achaemenid empire as well.
"but there are indeed sources which state Aria wasn't the part of Mauryans"
That is literally what the holed version is representing. But if you are representing two versions of the same map, You need to represent both of them rightfully and accurately, which you aren't doing in case with the Mauryan Empire's standard map. Because all the historians supporting this version do include aria in it, which you aren't doing. I recommend to check these too [17][18]Malik-Al-Hind (talk) 16:49, 17 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Not trying to assume things but It just seems like they are avoiding the entire topic and don't want to make any changes..purposely trying to rely on POV-push. They asked us to seek a consensus and discuss, which they are refraining from. Only an RFC could sort things out but no one is willing to do that either. @पाटलिपुत्र what is your take on this? Malik-Al-Hind (talk) 16:59, 17 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
An RFC does not trump an Featured article review. The India page's WP front page appearance on 2nd October 2019, Gandhi's 150th, was closely watched by at least a dozen administrators. Its lead said then, and does now: "Early political consolidations gave rise to the loose-knit Maurya and Gupta Empires based in the Ganges Basin. Their collective era was suffused with wide-ranging creativity, but also marked by the declining status of women, and the incorporation of untouchability into an organised system of belief."
@Fowler&fowler You just ignored more than 90% of the stuff i said. I wouldn't repeat myself, we are clearly talking about the standard Mauryan map, and the sources that mauryan map is based on clearly says aria was the part of Mauryans, Infact all historians who believed in the standard Mauryan version agree that aria was the part of Mauryans indeed, which I quoted above and which you are collectively ignoring. We can't make the boundaries of the mauryan empire based on our understanding of the inscriptions. That is literally a povpush and WP:OR, we need to rely on what historians, archeologists and scholarly academia says.
We are representing 2 versions of the mauryan map, But the current map of the standard version is not being represented accurately at all. It misses a lot of places and
which the sources it is based on explicitly says was the part of Mauryan empire. The current map is not aligning with the sources it is based on, which is an insane Pov push and WP:OR since the holed version is already there to represent the controversy behind aria/gedrosia. Malik-Al-Hind (talk) 17:36, 17 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
They are going in a circular discussion which never seems to end. Both of them collectively ignored our entire main point and the sources I cited, both of them refrained from discussing on that. Though I will patiently wait for their response. Malik-Al-Hind (talk) 17:47, 17 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Those sources are old, dated. I can produce even older sources than Joppen and Vincent Smith. They state the provinces were east of the Indus and the elephants were 50, not 500, not to mention that the stories of Megasthenes of "the grandeur of Chandragupta, of his army, and his capital, are well-nigh incredible." (G. U. Pope's A Text-Book of Indian History, London WH Allen, 1880. I will add some pictures. Fowler&fowler«Talk»17:54, 17 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
How does a source like [19] and Kosmin (2014) looks old to you? I am sure I cited numerous old and new scholarly WP:RS works. But again, the point is not about what is new or what is old.
The point here is about representing the viewpoint of vast group of historians correctly here instead of distorting it. Since this article is representing 2 types of viewpoint, the one who believe in holed version and the one who don't believe in a hole version, It is our duty to represent the map/viewpoint of both of these groups accurately, which we are NOT doing here. Malik-Al-Hind (talk) 17:58, 17 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
There are no two viewpoints; otherwise, the India page, the flagship page on Indian history, would have it. There is only one modern map. The Mauryas had some regions of core control, but outside them the vast subcontinent was autonomous. Had they had the whole subcontinent, they would have left at least one artifact in Baluchistan. But there is nothing there. As Baluchistan has no trees, if the Mauryas has actually lived there, they would have built homes in stone. But nothing survives, no road, no canal, no settlement, no bones, ... Even in places such as Taxila, or Afghanistan, outside the Asokan pillar or edict, there is no Mauryan artifact anywhere. Fowler&fowler«Talk»18:36, 17 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I will say this again. We are representing 2 versions of the Mauryan map. But the standard version i.e the version which is without holes is not being represented accurately at all.
First of all it relies upon bunch of sources which it doesn't align with, All of the sources the map is based on clearly state that Aria was the part of Mauryan empire as we have discussed this before, but the map nowhere seems to have it. Leave the cited sources of the map, since only 3 historians are cited there. Almost all the historians who push forward and believe in the standard Mauryan version include Aria in it and clearly state that Aria was the part of Mauryan empire.
The wiki article seems to represent the viewpoint of 2 groups of Historians and archeologists. First who supposedly believe there were independent autonomous tribes inside the Mauryan realm and Second are the One who push forward a standard Mauryan map which encompasses almost all of South Asia . In such a circumstance, it is our duty to represent their viewpoint accurately which we are not doing here. Because the standard Mauryan map (i.e the one without holes) is based on the viewpoint of historians who repeatedly have said this over and over again that Aria was the part of Mauryan empire, which isn't included in the current standard Mauryan map of this article at all. So it just seems like we are distorting the viewpoint of a vast group of historians because of our own POV bias here.
I request both of you, to improve the map by including all the supposed Seleucid ceded territories Including Aria in the Standard Mauryan map (the one without holes).
I hope this will be fruitful. Malik-Al-Hind (talk) 18:00, 17 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Well, I actually think that F&f has a good point in questioning the presence/rule/impact on the eastern Seleucid territories. Problem is, though, that many maps do include them, including Schwarzberg. Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk!18:40, 17 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, but Schwarzberg and others don't delve into whether or not the Mauryas had political, military, or administrative control of these regions, or even established tributary relationships. In other words, they are not historians of ancient India or archaeologists. Same with Kosmin, he is a classicist who studies old Greek historians. He is not a historian of ancient India. In the India page, there are only a handful of ancient India scholarly sources that we use: Thapar, Kulke and Rothermund, Ludden, and Burton Stein. They all, down to the last historian standing, state that the empire had gaping holes. Fowler&fowler«Talk»18:53, 17 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The "holes" are not under discussion anymore; what's being discussed is the maximum extent. You have a good point with regard to the ceded territories, I think, but the point is: most sources, including Schwarzberg, do include those territories in their maximum extent maps. Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk!19:52, 17 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
PS: there must be a way to make the links work in the notes; many other links do work. With ref|group=note there is a bypass, so I'm going to find out if there is one here too. Regards, Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk!19:59, 17 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
OK, @Joshua Jonathan:. Meanwhile, I will create a separate section with a permalink to the infobox with all five modern archaeology-based maps, so that if some editors in the future start the same old same-old, thinking we haven't thought about these issues, we have something instantly to point to. Thank you. Fowler&fowler«Talk»00:39, 18 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I gotta agree with Fowler here. Seems a bit misleading to expand mauryan territory in the map when we don’t even have a good understanding of the level of control they had over those areas. These weren’t modern day nation states. Someguywhosbored (talk) 00:56, 18 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
level-4 vital article is rated B-class on Wikipedia's content assessment scale.
Done Please wait for your request to be processed instead of making an another request with the exact same content in a different IP/account. This is considered disruptive. ABG (Talk/Report any mistakes here) 01:07, 17 September 2024 (UTC)
Not done: Duplicate request. ABG (Talk/Report any mistakes here) 01:04, 17 September 2024 (UTC)
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